Talk:NPC contracting

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Here my points to be discussed: (I hope I haven't missunderstood things in the text)

1. The concept of NPC Contractors: "...and which will eventually be picked up by NPCs"
Contra: When a player makes a contract to a NPC in a lot of cases it will be sponaneous, so waiting hours or days to see if the contract is accepted makes it hard to handle or to plan. Solution: I propose that every station has an amount of NPCs availiable, if all the NPCs are "at work" they are gone, so no contract can be placed. Later when the player owned NPCs come they can also be addressed directly because the logic is already implemented.

Erik Finnegan 08:03, 23 July 2009 (UTC):

  • In fact "eventually picked up" I thought of as "almost immediate". Contracts will have a time at which activity shall start - to be discussed whether the contractor picks up immediately or at the set starting time of the contract activity.
  • The suggestion of a limited number of NPCs avaiable at a station (much like factory and invention slots) would be a good additonal topic

2. Contract Types/Mining: "The jettisonning will allow for pirating (can flipping), which is good for the acceptance of such a feature."
Contra: This is exact what I didn't want, because so the pirates just have to fly by, take a look at the ship ("Oh NPC in, so let's wait") and then take the ore. With this behavior a mining contract is in a lot of cases more or less useless.
"...which is good for the acceptance..." - When you compare the amount of people mining to the amount of people pirating, I'd guess that the pirates are a definate minority (one pirate on four or even more miners) So acceptance shouldn't be a problem.
Solution: Interesting is the behaviour of the NPC, when the ship is fully loaded, this might be defined in the contract:

  • return to station for discharging and then contiue mining
  • wait until a hauler (NPC) is coming transfer the ores and continue mining
  • drop into a can and continue mining (whatever happens to the can ;-))
  • inform and wait for the player to give order (The already existing fleet ordering system can be used for that.)

Erik Finnegan 08:03, 23 July 2009 (UTC):

  • In the CSM we have a ratio of 4 pirates against 2 miners. It is that acceptance I am, that I have to be worried about in order to make any of this happen ! :-o

In addition to that, I see a very valid scenario in "Capsuleer in a combat ship guards his NPC miner". Also, if the contracts are set up well, the NPC miner can unload into an achored sec can - no stealing from there ! There has to be margin for error in order to pass this proposal with pirates.

  • Comments to the solution in the same order as given above
    • contract shall define discharge into container - that may be a station container. So no need for additional contract options - better for implementation
    • too "secure", involves too much AI
    • I was referring to secure cans; no stealing from there! Unless the can is full at which time the NPC miner might jettison next to it or stimply stop activity - that involves much less AI programming
    • NPC control to come later

3. Contract Types/Transport : "...the player would have to go to both places in order to "prepare" the route." and Equipment:"Ships and modules to be used by NPCs must be bought and maintained by the Capsuleer. The ships need to be present in the hangar of the station, from which the contractor is supposed to take off from."
Contra:

  • When the player has to have the ship for transportation, and has to go to both positions, he/she can do the transport him/herself.
  • When the player has large things to transport (f.e. ships) they might not match the container set at the destinated location. So he has to go there buy perhaps the biggest available container to put the things, even tranported in the next smaller container, in. The player, if he/she is doing more than one transport, he/she has to fly to the destination, take the delivered stuff out of the destination-can, just because the next package of transported goods can be filled in there. In the result there will be a high amount of containers lying around in stations, just because they might be usable sometime in the near or far future. And the players would have to think very detailed on the coordination (when shall what be transported and where does the player have to do what that all is running correct). Perhaps so the player might have more work in coordination of transport than making it by him/herself.

Solution: Goods can be taken from and directly put into hangars by the NPCs.

Erik Finnegan 08:03, 23 July 2009 (UTC):

  • Contra not really valid, because preparation of the route can be done in a small and fast frigatte. As soon as containers are established (can be bought "on site" mostly, no need to transport) then it can be reused for multiple contracts.
  • I prefer "take from can and put to can" because it can be ideally combined with the mining logic. In addition, when at a station, the destination may be a station container; no room availability issues here for the low-end player

Contra: When I see it right, we have to remember the basic thoughts, that this is for lower skilled players. Most of them don't have the money to buy and fit the good ships. So this feature would just be interesting for players about at least 6-9 month "old" or for corporations to increase their income. Solution: NPCs have their own ships, Tech I only, but they can be equipped by the player if the player wants to give a better ship to the NPC (f.e. with cargohold expanders). So When an NPC has an own ship even the starting chars have the possibility to use the NPCs effectively.

One problem I see, is that the behaviour for low-sec and 0.0 has to be discussed. Perhaps we don't have contractable NPCs there.

Erik Finnegan 08:03, 23 July 2009 (UTC):

  • good idea with "basic" ship. I am worried (for exploitability) when "giving" items from void. But basic ship is ok. Still, an iteron is not a heavy investment and easy to finance after a week of work.

When I've more ideas I'll put them here ;-)

Comments from a CSM colleague

1) What organization are these NPCs part of.

If I am at war with you, and an NPC from Deep Core Mining picks up your mining contracts, can I shoot the NPC without concord aggro?

Erik Finnegan 09:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC): they would be "freelance", but in any case (whether we call it NPC contracts or Capsuleer-owned NPCs) they should be flying under the corporate flag of the player hiring them. Therefore, as stated in my version of the draft (see history), I want to restrict usage to pilots in their own corp; combined with a total limit to corp/alliance in order to restrict to the lower end of the player scale.

2) I get the impression that this issue caters heavily to the solo player demographic.

While, yes these guys exist in the game, even CCP feels that players should form into player corporations. It is afterall a multiplayer game. I am fairly certain that the current CSM is more group-oriented and is unlikely to support this idea - regardless of its implementation.

Erik Finnegan 09:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC): Yes, it does ! While I do generally oppose solo-player behaviour and any mechanics catering them, you cannot ignore the fact that this is an important part of the client base. And currently, tasks as suggested to be formalized by this proposal are currently done with ALTs which definitely opposes the immersive approach of EVE, too.

Two thoughts then:

  • this mechanic would significantly attract such players, and - given that this is not the predominant play philosophy of EVE - would IMHO assimilate new players smoothly into the EVE play-style
  • the current habit of employing ALT accounts will be embraced and assimilated. Having a miner with an ALT hauler is a predominant play-style in some regions and make apparent that there is a need for pilots, who obey more to your command than another Capsuleer (who is susceptible to scam you on top of that!)

3) What are the costs for these contracts?

An npc mining contract, does that give me a miners who mines 10x the contract isk worth of ore for me? If so, this is just a way to artificially inflate miner income and while the mining profession needs a boost, this would be the wrong way to do it. If the miner only mines an amount of ore equal to the contract value, what is the point, why not buy it off the market in the first place? Can the contract cost vs NPC gains ever be balanced?

While the idea of controlling NPCs to a degree is intrigueing, I'm not sure if this issue is the right implementation of the concept.

Erik Finnegan 09:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC): Yes, the mining income shall be increased, but to the cost of work and forethought to be put into such contracts. This will be captivating to the solo-ist. And to add multi dimensionality, the margin for error (mining NPC jettison if the secure container is full) shall allow for more pirate behaviour. More ideas to multi-dimensionalize this idea are highly welcome !

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